Every March since 1987, Congress and U.S. Presidents have designated March as Women’s History Month. This year, The Crude Life celebrates and honors their accomplishments and contributions in history with interviews and stories that center around women’s experiences in industry.
The Crude Life believes women are vital in energy. Today more than ever. From a female’s point of view to intuition to specific skill sets, women are vital in energy.
Today’s women in industry are not only modern-day leaders, but truly are defining history as well.
Everyone at The Crude Life is grateful for all your contributions to industry, to your communities and to our planet.
Here is a fantastic interview with Trisha Curtis, CEO, PetroNerds is based in Denver with her oil and gas advisory firm, PetroNerds. Trisha took some time to talk about her experience and knowledge in the industry and the amount of information she shares is vast.
We began by talking about her deep roots in the oil and gas industry, where Trisha got her education, and how she got her foot in the door. It was a rough beginning, but eventually she got her start by getting involved in a non-profit organization called The Energy Policy Research Foundation.
“[I] was able to really self teach myself a lot of stuff and figure out that I was really good at presenting and speak with a lot of folks and just… it was a huge blessing in terms of being able to learn just an immense amount about the industry and find out that I was extremely passionate about it.” – Trisha Curtis
Next we talk about Trisha’s favorite part of the oil and gas industry: the information. Makes sense, right? After all, PetroNerds is a company that takes a look at all of the facts in order to help businesses move forward. So Trisha began talking about all of the different facets that get taken into consideration when helping other people and companies make their plans to move forward. There are many pieces of the process to consider and the more information there is available, the better off everyone is for it.
“…A lot of folks don’t really understand that they do need to understand the oil and gas industry… there’s an immense value in just having a deeper understanding of how the market works…” – Trisha Curtis
So after getting her foot in the door, Trisha was doing a lot of analytics for the non-profit in order to help create policy. At one point, she gained the nickname Petronerd, and it stuck. Later on in 2016, instead of taking a position at one of the multiple companies offering a job, Trisha decided to create her own business and she tells us about taking that leap.
“I can’t say it was easy – it was really, really hard. But, it was a great learning experience.” -Trisha Curtis
Our discussion touches on the learning curve within the industry and compares the issues that were seen in 2017 to the issues the industry is facing today. It’s a hot button issue, but Trisha has a lot of insight into the situation based on her career analyzing the trends and statistics in real time. She also touches on strategy when it comes to the industry getting jarred by current events and how it’s at that point when continuing to work is very important.
“The oil industry probably doesn’t have a really deep grasp of how serious the legislative stuff is gonna be and how intense, really, that Washington and Whitehouse are on their views of the oil and gas industry and it is definitely going to be an uphill battle.” – Trisha Curtis
With the ups and downs (mostly downs) over the last year, there may be people still waiting for recovery. However, Trisha says that we are in the recovery – it’s just that no one was expecting such high prices while recovering. These prices have been felt in every industry by the consumer at this point, and it happened very quickly due to multiple different things. But although there are many who worry the prices will only continue to rise, according to Trisha it may level out more soon than anticipated.
When India starts getting louder and louder and countries start getting louder about prices going up and they’re in recovery mode, it’s going to impact the demand side. So, you know, there’s not unlimited demand to certain price decks…so, there’s a sweet spot in which they sorta need to hit.” – Trisha Curtis
We also touch on the Keystone XL pipeline , which is a project that Trisha has been involved in since nearly the beginning, and the other bans and suspension orders. She discusses the impact of the changes and how she believes these changes are meant to be permanent.
“Could they change their minds? Yes, possibly, they could change their minds… but there is nothing that has happened in DC from an energy standpoint that would lead me to believe that they are looking to help out the oil industry in any form.” – Trisha Curtis
Why wouldn’t they change their minds? Well, because if someone were to take a look at the plans to tackle climate change it could be noted that the first step in the plan is to go after the oil and gas industry for emissions. Although, that doesn’t make scientific sense anyway because the United States has lower emissions than other countries around the globe. So, by outsourcing our oil and gas is not going to reduce emissions, but rather inflate it. This isn’t just for oil and gas though, either. With a push toward using more electricity and battery power, there are already market changes being made in anticipation but it may be more difficult to implement an energy structure that focuses on renewable energy to the extent that policy makers are going for. Then, when it comes to coal and carbon sequestration, there just doesn’t seem to be much clarity on how much support this part of the industry has on The Hill.
“It’s very theoretical, and yet the market is already moving on it and so it has just really significant implications for the economy, I think, and how it’s all going to unfold. It sounds really great on paper; I think it’s going to be exceptionally messy.” – Trisha Curtis
Now, even through the potential coming chaos, there’s a note of hope as Trisha talks about how everything seems to go in a cycle. So for example, technology for carbon capturing, which was a tossed idea a few years ago, now has renewed interest and motivated people to go after it. Whereas a couple of years ago, no one had apparently thought it would work. So, as we watch new changes unfold in the coming months, just remember that the possibilities could be limitless with a renewed interest in the industry.
“What is old always becomes new again and what people always say is like ‘it’s impossible’ – nothing is impossible from a technological standpoint.” – Trisha Curtis
Moving forward, it looks like there are already many companies working to lessen their carbon footprint in an effort to help fight on behalf of the climate and environment. But as Trisha notes, it becomes increasingly difficult to make the necessary changes when the recent legislation leaves so many questions for what may come next. She speaks about how it’s necessary to run a business with a certain level of predictability. Unfortunately, the instability left by all of the unanswered questions has already begun to bring chaos into the industry.
“…but putting out legislation that is undeterminable and it has yet to be implemented, and putting all these question marks out – it’s very hard to navigate and do business… and executive orders that are written like this do not create stability and predictability.” – Trisha Curtis
Also, feel free to take a look at these links:
Find Trisha Curtis on LinkdIn
PetroNerds – Don’t forget to surf through the podcasts!
Interview and summary by Genneca Houser
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Trisha Curtis
... Yeah, I think. ...
Speaker 2
Mhm ... Every March since 1987 Congress and the United States presidents have designated March as Women's History Month. This year, the Crude Life celebrates and honors their accomplishments once again, along with their contributions in history, with interviews stories that center around women's experiences in oil and gas and industry. The crude life supports women in industry since day one and will continue to months after this as well.
The crude life believes women are vital in energy today. More than ever from a female point of view to intuition to specific skill sets. Women are vital in energy. Today's women and industry are not only modern day leaders but are truly defining history as well. Everyone here at the Crude life is grateful for all your contributions to industry, to your communities and to our planet. Today we celebrate Tricia Curtis with Petro nerds. ...
Genneca Houser
Well, all right, my friends. Good day to you. Uh Lucky for us today, we get to speak with Trisha Curtis and she's the president and CEO of Petro Nerds and now Tricia, you're based out of Colorado. Yes.
Trisha Curtis
Very
Genneca Houser
nice. Well, how are you doing today?
Trisha Curtis
I'm doing great. I'm very excited to be on the podcast.
Genneca Houser
Very excited to get to talk with you. I've been checking out your linked in the and the Petro Nerds website and I can only imagine how busy you are with all of the really good content and podcasts up on the Petro Nerds website that right there for everyone to see you too. So, very excited to get to talk with you a little bit. Would you want to begin with telling everyone how you got started in the oil and gas industry?
Trisha Curtis
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a good question. I'm actually a third generation oil and gas. So technically, my, you know, my grandfather was pumped wells um mostly around Wyoming and my, my dad also pumped wells around Wyoming in Southwest Colorado and I sort of struggled border of Colorado Wyoming growing up. And I guess it was sort of my blood.
But then I went to school in Denver at Regis University for my undergrad and did double the politics and economics. And then I went to London School of Economics and I was always with economics and international relations and politics. I was always really interested in oil because it just didn't fit nicely with supply and demand and it moved.
Um I mean, prices moved and supply moved and, and so super fascinated about it and kind of knew I wanted to work into it or work, work with it and studied Russia and China and things like that and was always interested in the oil side and then got into grad school and just, um, was sure I wanted to work in work with an energy and particularly with an oil if I could.
And it was just a really tough time with a recession and, and it was 2010 and very high unemployment, very hard to get a job. So I ended up buying one way ticket to D C and Cold calling a bunch of energy organizations until I found the nonprofit that I ended up with, which was called the Energy Policy Research Foundation. And that's really where I was very fortunate to, to learn a ton and cut my teeth on everything. Sort of the U S unconventional oil boom was just happening.
Everything shale, the bacon, um, and oil sands and pipelines and sort of was able to really self teach myself a lot of stuff and, uh, you know, figure out that I was good at presenting and, and speak with a lot of folks and just, it was a huge blessing in terms of being able to just learn an immense amount about the industry and find out that I was extremely passionate about it.
Genneca Houser
That's, that's wonderful. I bet you're really good at puzzles.
Trisha Curtis
Huh? Um, you know, I don't do a lot of puzzles but, you know, maybe I should try.
Genneca Houser
Well, I was just thinking all of the uh analytics that you'd have to do, you know, leading up to that. So, I guess what has been your favorite part of being involved in the oil and gas industry once you got to really get into the door? Um,
Trisha Curtis
you know, honestly I would say that puzzle so that the learning piece is the best. I mean, there's something that a lot of people I think don't appreciate is the, is just the, the immense amount of information and um the complexity of this business. I mean, anything that's a commodity is, um you know, you can study from a lot of different angles of, from how it's produced, how it works, who actually uses that, you know, and how that gets to the, you know, the end use consumer.
And then obviously there's, you know, economic angles of pricing and hedging and everything but oils are really unique and especially, I mean, now because it is so, um you know, it's such a political, controversial thing now and it, and it didn't necessarily used to be. Um but that's also another, you know, really interesting dynamic about it is that, you know, this, this is something that's, um you know, that was created a long time ago um under the ground and the ability to
extract it through technological means. And that, that piece of the technology is super fascinating. I mean, if I could just go work on completions, I probably would and actually, you know, did a bit in my in a part time job ahead with an exploration. And I um I love the completion side. I love the ability to think about how you actually, you know, pump water and stand down these walls and how this this product actually comes out.
So that's super fascinating and the puzzle piece, I guess of, of what type of group that is and where it goes and how it works. And I think, and then pulling all the way up to the big stuff is, or, you know, the best part is, is really working closely with clients and really working on the business strategy and figuring out how does this, you know, with the information that they need to know or you need to know to really make your business home.
And a lot of folks don't necessarily understand that they do need to understand on the gas industry, whether it's, they're, they're kind of involved in it or sort of, um, whether their service company and they're just sort of chasing rigs or they're looking at, you know, that's the data that they look at is the rigs is there's a, an immense value and just having a deeper understanding of how the market works and why, which oil operators, you know, which companies are in certain
areas and why they're drilling that area, whether at those depths. Um, you know, is that area gonna be, they're gonna continue to be there and you have to match up a lot of things with, with, with that information on the permitting side and, and the ringside and activity and you just kind of have to, helps when you study it a lot and you know, it, and you can explain this information back to your clients and, and tell them this is what's going on and, and it's, um, I think it's, it's for me,
I really enjoy the, that I actually enjoy the challenge of being put on the spot and getting really hard questions of, you know, well, why is it like this? And sometimes the best questions are, you know, the ones that are very basic or, or the most obvious that a lot of people just don't ask and, and it's something like, well, you know, how come the Permian had got all the, you know, why did it take the premium so long to get all the, all the love when the bacon had it?
You know, and actually having to explain that to a client and walk, Come to, that is a really good thought exercise because a lot of us take it for granted. So I, um you know, I just enjoy my work immensely and I'm super fortunate to have been, you know, to able to survive it through this 2020 was extremely rough year and went to a lot of changes for my business. So I'm very fortunate for that.
Genneca Houser
Oh, I can only imagine how, how did Petro nerds come to be,
Trisha Curtis
uh, partners came to be through. So when we were my colleague and I were both working at the Energy Policy Research Foundation and, uh, I think my boss had often come in and just called. I mean, I would, I would stay up late and I would be at the office. It was a townhouse in Georgetown in DC. And, um, you know, I would maybe come in at 10 in the morning, but I would often be there till two in the morning if we were crashing on a project or something.
And, and I think there's a, I was doing a big infrastructure project or paper and I would just stay up late and be putting sticky notes on the walls and, you know, doing all the stuff and then getting, you know, crafting something else and, and simply, and I think he called me, I have maps everywhere and stuff too and he called me a Petro nerd and the name kind of just stuck of like we were, we were true Petra Nerds.
Um, and then really, I think it was the work. It's great. But, you know, we sort of were, we were this nonprofit doing economic policy and technical analysis on the industry, which was awesome. But I think, you know, I just, it was my first real job at a college and I had just sort of tapped out in terms of, you know, how much I could really learn and go and it was a small organization.
So I had had, you know, I, I had had quite a few job offers during that, during those five years, I was there and turned them down because I, um you know, right or wrong. I really enjoyed the work that I was doing and I just didn't think I was gonna get that flexibility and freedom at a big company. Um Maybe I should have taken that as experience. Um But I chose to stay and then I decided to start my own business and that's um just a, you know, a lot of people probably don't appreciate the
intensity of it. Um You know, you see on linkedin and you see people like the digital broadcasters that I do my podcast, you know, they host the podcast, I mean, Um they post on stuff like that but, you know, to quit your job and then start a business. I mean, you just have to be wired in a certain way. So I put my job in December 2015 and then started the business and, you know, went on with it full time in January 2016 and moved out to Denver and wanted to bring it back, you know, wanted based
here closer to where things were actually happening. And that's, um you know, that was 2016 and I can say it was not, it was not an easy year either in the business because as, you know, I mean, consultants are kind of the first thing to go. Um, so starting your business on 2016 and then trying to get work. Um, it was a unique, it was a unique time, but it was, it was probably really good from a learning experience and just like pounding the pavement.
Um, and I'm one of the type of people that if you put a challenge in front of me, you know, I'm just gonna go on and take it. So that, that was, I can't say it was easy. It was really, really hard, but it was a really great learning experience.
Genneca Houser
Yeah, it sounds like you've had to overcome quite a bit of adversity to get to the point where you're at now. Do you think that this most recent transition or these most recent changes, I guess from 2020? Well, actually, even since January 20 with everything that's been going on, even in the last couple of months, do you think that this is going to be more difficult than that? 2017 trials and tribulations? I mean,
Trisha Curtis
it's, it's interesting because the, you know, this run up in prices, I think is actually probably people should be a little anxious about it because it's, I think it's all too rapid, a little too fast. So we're sort of clouded, I think by a lot of stuff that's happening within D C. Um, I think the, the oil industry probably doesn't have a really deep grasp of how serious the, um, legislative stuff is gonna be and how, um, how intense, really that, you know, Washington and the White
House are, um, on their views of the oil and gas industry. Um, and that is gonna definite to be an uphill battle. And I have been on the record for saying this for a while. I just, it's, it's kind of impossible to listen to, uh, to listen to how the White House is speaking and what they're saying and also to read through the executive orders to not come to that conclusion.
Um And it is a little shocking to me that that's not what I'm hearing and feeling from the oil industry itself is that they're sort of prepared for that. Um So in that sense, I would say that, you know, hopefully, uh those folks in the industry, um you know, listen to the podcast and they, You know, eventually bring me into the boards and talk to them and, and have a, you know, are willing to sort of listen to a different side of this, of somebody who's, you know, thinking about what could
happen and how you sort of assess the risks and how you sort of prepared for that. But I think 2020 was such a unique, um I mean, it was a black swan event. You couldn't, you couldn't necessarily really predicted, I mean, nobody could have really predicted oil prices going negative because in fact, see any group change the rules the weekend before to allow them to go negative.
I mean, so there was a, you know, a series of events but that came together and I think that price is actually going negative and, and then, you know, April may and how low prices were. And I think that also jarred the industry significantly. So it's something that um the, you know, OPEC and the Middle East are sort of real from as well is that, you know, they have been very adamant and serious and not letting prices go below 50.
And now that I think they've sort of let them get a little too hot, but that the I'm not going below 50 was for the same reasons. The operators in the US felt massive pain, you know, in the spring months of last year, which were just really, really hard and then the sort of service center history had to deal with that as well, right? So people were saying, well, how come the rigs are coming back factor and how come faster and how come the facts start coming back faster?
And a lot of that was simply because you had come from such low points that people were. So, I mean, you're, you're just your, your brain is jarred your analytical trajectory of how things are gonna look. Um And there was a massive fear that was going on there and, and that's something that, you know, I do wish that, um, I was able to work with more folks.
I mean, a lot of people just that you're not paying for analysis, you're not paying for somebody to talk to. But really, it was the time that you should have been working, it was really the time that you should have stayed course and, you know, held your guns and really, yes, it's scary and yes, prices crashed. But have they done that before? Yes.
And, and is that the time that you should drill and complete your wells? Maybe not honestly produce them? Absolutely is. Um, and so it, it was, you know, that's, that's what the industry does, this sort of duck and cover. But um there's, there was folks that we saw obviously, if you've seen the rig count and you look at who has brought those rig backs, they're pretty tiny companies, you know, there are a lot of small companies, private, still, private equity companies, private
players in the Permian that brought, you know, one and two rigs back relatively early. And so they, we're able, you know, to capture those low prices and to go in on it. And I think that's honestly a super smart move and, and obviously it looks smart for anybody who's bringing in well today, you know, at these price levels. And I think that's just something people have to appreciate too, is that, that, that massive generation lower prices that you know, high oil prices are not,
they're not necessary, they're not the answer. Um, and I think folks need to get very comfortable with realizing that these prices are, are not the answer for long term stability.
Genneca Houser
Yeah, I, I guess with that being said based on our current trajectory, what is it that you think are recovery is going to look like?
Trisha Curtis
I mean, this is the year in the recovery to an extent. I mean, this is the recovery. It's just, I don't think people thought the recovery would have this high oil prices and it's sort of, you know, you still have operators referencing $50 oil and their earnings calls because that's what they're sort of basing everything off of and then saying that they're going to give everything on top to the shareholders and that's true to an extent.
I don't think it's true to every small operator. So I think you have this sort of everyone just getting used to this and, and, and trying to feel the security behind it. Um, but this is you, you are in recovery mode and I think you just have to, I don't think it's, it's not likely that prices are gonna correct massively and go below 50 and, and hit 40 again.
I think we really saw that, you know, where price levels, even after after prices went negative in April, we sort of came back to this 40 range and we were stuck there and that was really with, even with all the demand coming off and analysts play coming off, that was sort of where we were landing. And so I think now it's just we have to be careful that there's about eight million barrels a day sitting on the sidelines with OPEC Plus and they will have to come back and something that the
market missed. I mean, the market's been wanting to trend higher. You know, we have the flip in the market where we have treasury yields going higher and we have tech stocks and Tesla selling off and we have this flip into um into, you know, the cyclicals and, and, and we have this reflation trade and everybody isn't worried about inflation and crude oil prices going up are huge component of that.
I mean, in addition to this, this massive, you know, nearly $2 trillion stimulus bill and higher oil prices. I mean, this is, this is real inflation and, and people are seeing in copper prices and lumber and um when you see oil prices go up that fast, I mean, that's something a consumer feels and that's a, that's inflationary pressure. And I think that that's a concern for the concern for a lot of economists but its concern for these emerging markets accepting, you know, trying to
buy these barrels. And it's something that OPEC really has to consider is that, you know, they will start, they will quickly be cooling off that demand poll that they were getting. Um, and in this recent OPEC meeting, they actually allowed, which was not publicized. And, you know, the storm that we had in Texas with taking three million barrels a day off line, um, and the refineries, you know, there's still some that are, are back up to full speed.
That's all helped propel oil prices higher and I sort of act as a catalyst the last several weeks. Um And then, and then there was a, you know, uh an attack on one of the Saudi facilities which didn't actually out, nothing actually happened, but it was an attempted attack. Um And so all the sort of let prices a little bit higher, but it seems like traders are taking it there.
The problem is that these barrels on the sidelines are going to want to come back. And OPEC Plus basically did allow Russia an extra couple 100,000 barrels a day that they'll be bringing online in it through April. And then also Kazakhstan just a little bit, it's not a ton of crude, but we're talking, you know, probably around 300,000 barrels a day.
And the reality too is these, you know, these, this agreement, the so called plus agreement is very unique and that they've done a decent job and keeping the cohesion together of the group, but it's structured in different ways. And so when you start looking at the actual numbers, they are exporting a decent amount of crude. I mean, the Saudis didn't completely drop their exports by one million barrels a day with this out that they said they didn't in, in January.
And then they're also, you know, they allow these countries to, um, to condensate is removed from those, the crude numbers. So typically they would have had to really focus on natural gas and they would have had to cut back on natural gas production because that would have, um, that would impact the condensate production. And since they haven't had to do that, they've been able to ramp up natural gas production and ramp up condensate production and kind of offset some of the
crude losses. And so really, when you're looking at that supplies the and, you know, not quite as low as something realized and, and that's, that's supportive in a way that, that the demand side has, you know, supported that and the market has supported. But I think that these levels and the reason crude is trading higher, um, you know, crude price stability is equally as important as, um, as, as the, the overall absolute level of price for operators.
And that's just something that folks really have to take into account. And I, you know, hedging people are being ripped now for, for actually having hedges in place and hindsight is 2020 it's easy to say that. But if prices dropped 10 bucks tomorrow, those hedge is gonna look really good and I think it's, it's super important if your private equity backed or, you know, you're trying to have any kind of stability is hedging plays a really nice role.
I mean, you should, you should layer it in, but it's, it's just an important element to this and, and no one can, no one could quite predict that we were gonna be at nearly $70 oil prices at this point. Um, given the state of events and, and how it's been traded up.
Genneca Houser
No, of course not. And I've actually read a few things that would suggest that the prices are actually going to keep going up and not stabilize anytime in the near future. Um At least not through the, not, not until the end of summer. It's a couple of things that I've read, but, but obviously I'm, I'm excited to get your take on on this, I guess in my mind, I was thinking, uh getting into recovery rather than being into recovery because in my, in my brain, the energy industry had taken
such a huge hit towards the end of January that it was kind of like being sent back into a re recovery if that makes sense once everything got shut down, uh such as the Keystone XL pipeline, which I had noted in one of your podcast, you said you had been working on almost from the very beginning.
Trisha Curtis
Mhm. Um Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say it's, I would just say it's this, look what, what OPEC has done in these price moves that we've seen. Um, nobody expected actually this last, this past week that OPEC would not bring any barrels back. And so I did think it was a little, it was kind of cheap of them to not, you know, too that the media did not cover that.
They allowed Kazakhstan Russia to increase those barrels. I think they did that probably on purpose. They probably kept Kazakhstan and Russia quiet. Um and wanted them to play that down so that they could just say, hey, we're sending these cuts and obviously crude surged on that because everybody thought they were gonna start bringing some barrels back with, it was 500,000 barrels a day or the studies are going to bring a million.
So that unexpectedness just gives me a lot of caution for its, you know, in April, they may say we're bringing 500,000 barrels a day and they say we're bringing a million barrels a day back. Um So I think that just gives me a lot of caution and pause, but to realize that, you know, you just have a lot of pent up barrels sitting there that they're ready and willing to come back.
And, you know, when the Indian, you know, when India starts getting louder and louder and countries start getting louder about, you know, prices going up and they're in recovery mode, it's gonna impact the demand side. So, you know, there is unlimited demand, a certain price decks and I think that they have like it, it's already impacting the Indian economy and it's already, you know, if you, if you're following Bloomberg or you're staying up late at night and you're watching
this, it's like the GDP trajectories of India are being changed right now because of the price of oil. So there's a sweet spot in which they sort of need to hit. Um on Keystone XL and the administrative moves, those are, you know, huge key. It was largely a very symbolic move and, you know, obviously hadn't even moved forward with within the four years of the Trump administration after he sort of re approved that permit and it just, it didn't take place.
So, I mean, whether or not that was going to get built is a whole other question, it was the most viable. All the, you know, Canadian pipelines get built and, and truthfully, you know, they do still need a one major pipeline because it's, it's extremely important and, and any energy transportation, whether it's crude or, or, you know, propane or N G L s or anything um or natural gas or whether it's electricity you need redundancy in the system.
Um And it's important to have those pipelines. So the fact that Keystone XL is not gonna get built, um that's one thing, but if, then if we have the Dakota access pipeline gets emptied and, and then if line five and line five gets emptied, if any of those happen or you know, and, and a different pipeline is emptied, it starts changing the map and the of the how crude flows within North America.
Um and it has an impact and um you know, Keystone XL, so that was a symbolic move. But then when you had the um the order for the suspension of delegated authority from the, by the acting Secretary of the interior order number 3395, that was a, you know, that was the suspension, that it was suspension of delegates already, basically limited a lot of folks from doing anything but it included the suspension of permitting on federal land.
Um And, and then you had the executive order that came out. Um So that was all day one within hours. And then you had executive order come out the following week on January 27th. That basically was the executive order of climate change, which did explicitly list. Um basically a it wasn't a permanent ban, but it was a, it was a band for as long as they were doing extensive review um and studying on federal lands.
And so they basically, you know, extended that, that suspension on federal land and the White House has had clarified many times. Um in the press commerce is that they intended that to be permanent. So it's, it's still mind boggling to me that people are are on the sense of understanding where they intended to be. Could they change their minds?
Yes. Possibly they could change their minds. Um, but that's not the direction and that there is nothing, um, that's happened in D C that would from an energy standpoint, from an oil standpoint that would lead me to believe that they are gonna, they're looking to, to give, to help out the oil industry in, in any shape or form.
Genneca Houser
Yeah, it's, well, it seems like that's not really their goal though, right? Because all of these changes came about with the specific goal of combat and climate change is the way that I had understood it. Do you think that it's, they're going to be getting to their goal with this method? Do you think that this is going to help?
Trisha Curtis
No, I don't. I mean, it's, it's absolutely not. So they're using climate change as a, um, they're using climate change is a reason for doing this and I'm troubled by that because if it's, then we're talking about C 02 emissions. So it should be about C two emissions. And, and I put this article on linkedin and, and, and I quote a few times because, you know, the economist wrote, it's not, it's not a bias or really unbiased article either.
It's, it's, it's an article explaining, you know, Biden's climate change agenda. Um, but it very clearly points out that what he is that he has one of the first, the first way of tackling changes to go after oil and gas production. And so if you're going after oil and gas production to tackle climate change, um, and then, and you're going after the, it's the emissions, the emissions from the industry only contribute 1% of, of C 02 emissions.
So that's not your, your unfairly attacking that industry now, clearly, that's symbolic, right? It's, it's that you're producing the oil and gas. But the problem is we have countries all over the world including Australia and Norway and Canada who are um you know, hold, have, have climate change agendas have um are part of the Paris climate accords and yet they produce oil and I don't know if all those are part of the Paris climate accords, but they produce oil and gas and they are
not, you know, taking a backseat in that stance, they're not reducing their production or hampering it. And so it's really interesting to me that even the most aggressive and most liberal countries in Europe have not done what you have not tried to do what this administration is trying to do. Um And so this, it is absolutely um a bias, an unfair thing to attack oil and gas production on the basis of emissions.
And, and it just means that you're gonna be importing, you know, I think it's probably the opponents are folks on the other side of this, probably get tired of hearing it, but it's very true. I mean, if you're not producing it here in the U S, you are importing it unless you're substantially reducing your, your, your demand. And there's nothing in those executive orders other than trying to push through a massive amount of E V S electric vehicle uptake, which is a whole nother issue
on, on outsourcing energy security. But we part of these executive orders and part of the stimulus package that's actually, you know, pushed all this inflation is, you know, everybody's going crazy about electric vehicles and the components and we're gonna see a huge boom in mining, not just, I mean, all over the world, I doubt it will really happen in the in the U S to a large extent because of the environmental stringency ease in the U S.
But mining for Cobalt and mining for nickel and mining for um all the battery complaint and lithium and lithium is one thing and then we've kind of been mining for a long time, but Cobalt is a huge huge component as well. So that's just battery components but stuff that you know, it's, it's batteries and solar panels and it's, it's wind turbines and it's all the stuff that goes into it.
And so it's a huge that, that in itself just that, that infamous meant demand is creating massive inflationary pressure. And so the cost components that are gonna go up and almost none of those are made in the U S. So, um and it's, it's just important realizes that, you know, we can build all the charging stations and everything that we want.
And that's, that's not just a bad thing for an infrastructure boom and for jobs and everything, but you're not sourcing. If you're not sourcing those batteries and stuff, you're, you're sourcing elsewhere and, you know, so it's a real thing for energy security and stuff that, you know, the the thinkers on this stuff from a policy perspective need to be thinking about is that, you know, and, and China has done a really good job of sort of positioning themselves to be the maker of
these products and to be exporting them. Um And so We're sort of, we're will be sort of outsourcing that, but it's not necessary, none of it's real yet. So this is all very, you know, this is talk, these are an executive orders and so it's very theoretical and yet the market's already moving on it. And so it has just really significant implications I think for, you know, the overall economy of how it's gonna unfold.
It sounds really great on paper. I think it's going to be exceptionally messy. And then another part of this, that climate change, executive order is decarbonization, the grid by 2035, like basically having it in zero. And a lot of things that people don't think about our carbon capture. And I think you could, you could probably do that with some carbon capture.
But if being all done through renewables, you know, and I'm not hearing a lot of love on the carbon capture side out of D C at least, or policymakers. And they're just, again, there hasn't been a whole lot of clarity on this is that you're gonna try to rapidly de carbonized the grid. And, you know, most of us got a little savvy with the grid in this big Texas storm and the subsequent storms thereafter.
So if you pull up the grids and you see the actual power source and you, you look at the U S, it's, you know, Texas has a lot of natural gas and, but because they have that natural gas, they've also been able to have a lot of renewables because the natural gas sort of helps offset that in time situations. And the rest of the U S is still predominantly coal.
And so to decarbonization grid that rapidly is gonna have some very fast, enduring implications. Um And just all these things impact, you know, people's jobs and livelihoods and the economy. Um and this is not something this is new. I mean, I was, I've been listening to a bunch of podcasts and, and doing research on India and, you know, they have such a huge coal base of, of the people that work and live in coal.
Um And so the, you know, when they're thinking about how to, how to get off coal and to, to just change up the grid, it's extremely complex. Not just because it's entrenched within their economy and their culture and their communities. Um It's just that it's something that they use and consume and there's no easy way to just turn on, you know, to flip it and it's no different than here.
We, this is a, we just, it's a big, you know, country with a lot of, you know, these separate states. And I think we, we often look to Europe and think of how it's been done there and, you know, it's, it's been done in some ways. But I mean, germ he still has, um, still consumes cold because they have a very strong constituency that produces coal in part of their country and they have never been able to get rid of that.
Um, and they still produce it. I mean, the U K is actually opening a deep sea coal mine for the first time in years. A new one, um, that's not publicized and not talked about, but it's because they, they're, I think it's, it's actually it's offshore and it's not going to power but it is going to steal. Um And it's just kind of fascinating to me that the UK is going ahead with a new power, you know, new coal plant when, you know, in the US where, you know, we're attacking oil and gas
production and it's just this, this stuff has happened in history before and, and, um, you know, when you, when you flip this hard one direction, you typically have to flip back another direction and I just, I don't think these things are gonna come out, um, nice and cleanly in reality.
Genneca Houser
No, it sounds like we might be looking at a little bit of turbulence. Kinda, kinda also sounds like even with these executive orders, we still don't really know exactly what's going to end up happening once the implementation occurs because of different varying issues that maybe haven't been thought of. Although I did see that Senator Manchin had come out in support of the coal part of our energy industry.
And it sounds kind kind of like you had mentioned the carbon capturing or the carbon sequestration. It kind of sounds like uh in places like Wyoming and North Dakota that they're kind of gonna be focusing more so on the carbon capturing through, through coal or with coal or. Um it's, it was pretty fascinating. I've heard, I've heard snippets tidbits, but obviously I'm, I'm no professional.
Trisha Curtis
No. And you know, it's something that's been, that's the thing is like, you know, I've been in this industry and for years and so people have, you know, what, what is old always becomes new again and what people say is like, that's impossible. Nothing's impossible from a technological standpoint, you know, and so people said five years ago that carbon capture is dead, I mean, I heard people very smart people that have done work on carbon capture, everything is completely dead.
It will never get off the ground hasn't been invested in it. It's not technologically viable. It's not cost effective. Well, you know, when you, when you put a bunch of executive orders and you underwrite this stuff and you have money flowing to it all of a sudden, it becomes really interesting again and it's basically to get to the emission targets that anybody wants to in the world, whether it's two degrees or whether it's 1.5 or whatever it is, you have to have carbon capture in
there, it's impossible. Um You will not hit it. Um Frankly, you're not gonna hit it unless you address India and China and we're not going to hit it. We're not even going to get close to it by just doing what we're doing in the U S. So, you know, all our efforts really need to be probably abroad, but that's, that's not politically palatable and nobody wants to talk or say that.
So we just focus everything on here um and its ways to drive different infrastructure investment. But carbon capture in itself is, I mean, it makes sense a lot of sense because you can, but it is really expensive and it hasn't been done at scale. Um And in theory, you could be doing it off power plants and you could be um what they're doing in the permian and what occidental and Vicky Oliver promoting and have been promoting for years is, is that using Seo to um you know, obviously
they're re injecting co two for enhanced oil recovery. And then they're basically making those barrels zero, you know, zero carbon barrel. Is that because they're capturing all the carbon that's in the production cycle of that. So that um they actually teamed up with United and United is getting barrels from them that have a zero car because United is trying to lower their carbon footprint.
But, you know, and I'm not saying the efforts of all this, but you do have to ask yourself, what are the costs of all these things? And do they actually technically over the life cycle of everything, are they actually lowering the footprint? Because if I don't know exactly how all that's being measured? But, you know, if we're talking about a Tesla vehicle, you know, if you're actually, you know, looking at the lifecycle emissions of how you make that vehicle, if it's not less on
the carbon footprint standpoint, and then if I'm plugging into my house, you know, and I have 33% coal in my house and that's the power. Um, then I, you know, that doesn't actually have a lower carbon footprint. So if it's a pure electric grid or something, or if I'm, you know, have it, if I have a battery and it's being proud of that, that's different but, I mean, doing all this stuff.
Um, and it's just, it's, it's not something that I'm, I'm explaining or doing it is that it's just, you know, renewables to have a place and, and, you know, technology is awesome and I love it, I guess, sector, but you have to be conscious of what's actually happening. It's, it's no different than saying if the industry is doing something wrong is calling them out on it and then doing a better job in the industry can do a lot better job in terms of addressing emissions and, and dealing
with that stuff. And I think they are, I mean, the impetus on the industry is doing this. But I think that the fairness is that you need to say, okay, we're gonna regulate you, here's the regulations and they'll go comply with them. This industry will do that. They're extremely innovative and they will rise to the challenge. But putting out, you know, legislation that is, that is undetermined, herbal and, and it has yet to be implemented and putting all these question marks out,
it's very hard to navigate and do business basics of anything of doing business. Um You have to have stability and predictability and executive orders that are written like this do not create stability and predictability. And frankly, they create their already creating chaos and, and wreaking havoc on the market of, of this, you know, electric vehicle boom and, and everybody going crazy because they think this is going to be awesome.
And the same thing you can read it for offshore wind is that everybody's going bananas about offshore wind. There's only a few places in the US where offshore wind technically works and where you actually have the wind and you can do it and it still hasn't, you know, to have that offshore wind. You have to have very reliable and stable large cycle combined, you know, combined natural gas facilities on the power side.
Um, and in the northeast to basically accept that wind and I, you know, a little certain we may not have those or I'm not certain where we're going to build a new one. Um If we're so anti fossil fuels, will we ever build a new? Are we going to continue to use our, our one, our existing and we have a lot of natural gas combined cycle facilities and power. What are we going to continue to use them efficiently? And just because we have them doesn't mean that everything's in the right location,
you know, and, and I think, you know, knowing where natural gas is produced and knowing what the pipelines are and, you know, if you are burdened someone on the regulatory environment or you can never build a new pipeline, you can impact that production, you can impact that stability, predictability or the economics of things. And that's all really important for, you know, natural gas is gonna be a critical component of the uptake of these renewables on the grid side.
Genneca Houser
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. No, it's uh I totally lost a whole bunch of my thoughts and I've been writing down and taking notes. You've got so much information I could probably sit here and listen to, to it for hours because this is a, you have a very unique perspective on, on what is happening simply because you get to work with all of this information on a daily basis. So that's, yeah, that's a lot of things for. I hope somebody's listening, someone else is listening in the industry to so that
maybe, maybe they'll be good, good stuff coming from it because yeah, it kind of sounds like maybe the focus should be a little bit different in order to take a real sustainable approach to making a positive change on this. But I guess until then, like you said, we'll just have to continue focusing on what, what we're able to do here.
Trisha Curtis
Yep. I think it's a lot of studying and learning and I appreciate those, those are kind words and I did ramble on for a long time. So um people probably have to play this back on slow speed. But um yeah, it's, it's, it's what, you know, fortunately I, I love what I do and so studying it. Um and I think that, you know, there's a lot of ways you can look at this pretty negatively, but I think there's a lot of ways to study it and sort of work around it, you know, and it does create a lot of
opportunity and there are ways to navigate this. Um So it's just that, you know, you have to be smart and you have to have your ear to the ground and you have to be, you know, willing to sort of bust your ass and, and make it work.
Genneca Houser
Yeah. Well, and I think that's true of, of anything but it's right now in the, in the industry, I can't imagine that it's going to get any easier for a moment. So, yeah, busting button and keeping up keeping that motivation and perseverance I think is going to be the real key actually on that note because I, like I said, I know you're probably pretty busy. But is there anything exciting coming up with Petro Nerds?
Trisha Curtis
You know, we've done, I've done a lot in the past, you know, sort of revamping over last fall. The dot com has a new website and a new logo, so I haven't seen it, check it out. Um, you know, it's a small company of definitely punch above our weight and, um, I'm speaking at the, or already spoken, it's recorder but has an evolved conference that's on the 10th.
And so I did a recording and with, uh, the Chip Mullin, I'm going to get his name wrong. He's, he's the head of law I Q or now called our bow. And so we talked a lot about Apple and the next evolution of oil and gas transportation. Um, so actually a lot of this stuff we really get in the weeds on, on the, on the Dapple and Enbridge Line five stuff. Um, which was a great conversation and yeah, I expect big things from, from patrons this year.
I'm off to the races and I, you know, really enjoying the podcast and I want to get some, some heavy hitters actually, you know, talked with some C E O s and, and get involved and stuff and um I probably need to spend a little more time in Houston and doing stuff and I've actually really enjoyed the, I've, since I've started the podcast, I've been invited on a lot of other people's podcasts, which has been super fun.
So I really appreciate you taking the time, um, and chatting with me, I love the business and I love talking about this stuff and um, and I love helping people and I love educating. So, um expect more of that. Yes, I'm
Genneca Houser
excited to hear that then. Yeah, absolutely. Um You are extraordinarily knowledgeable. So, no, it was a joy listening to what you had to say. And if there's any, you know, big updates or anything that you would like shared, you feel free to let me know. And I would love to get that word out there too. So anyone listening, if you haven't been to the Petro Nerds website. Make sure you get up there. It is a really cool looking website. You did a great job on the design too.
Trisha Curtis
So, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So the website so you can follow me on linkedin because I do post a lot of stuff on linkedin. Great way to get in touch with me and then I'm on Twitter is Tricia J Coffee as well. Um A lot of late night posts on OPEC stuff. So I mean you can follow me on there but feel free to, you know, reach out to me in any of those forms.
Genneca Houser
Nice. Wonderful. Thank you so much Tricia. I really appreciate you taking the time with me today.
Trisha Curtis
No, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Um Anytime
Genneca Houser
sounds great. I'll hold you to it and hopefully we'll get to talk again then.
Trisha Curtis
Okay. Awesome.
Genneca Houser
Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Alright, my friends that was Trisha Curtis, the CEO and president of Petro Nerds. Make sure to go and check out petro nerds dot com. If you haven't already, there's great content up there. It's a good looking website, highly knowledgeable in the industry, obviously, as you just heard and if you do like the content you just heard there's more to find on the crude life dot com. So make sure to check that out as well.
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The Crude Life Podcast: Trisha Curtis, PetroNerds