Multimedia journalist Jason Spiess appeared on the BBC World Service’s World Have Your Say regarding the Dakota Access Pipeline Protest and the Bakken oil fields. Spiess is joined by Dallas Goldtooth, Indigenous Environmental Network and Chris White, energy and environmental reporter, Daily Caller News Foundation.
The round table discussion addresses the protesters, the pipeline, the state and whether the pipeline can be rerouted.
The Dakota Access Pipeline Protests, also called by the hashtag #NoDAPL, began in early 2016 as a grassroots opposition to the construction of Energy Transfer Partners‘ Dakota Access Pipeline in the northern United States. The pipeline runs from the Bakken oil fields in western North Dakota to southern Illinois, crossing beneath the Missouri and Mississippi rivers, as well as under part of Lake Oahe near the Standing Rock Indian Reservation.
Many members of the Standing Rock tribe and surrounding communities consider the pipeline to be a serious threat to the region’s water. The construction also directly threatens ancient burial grounds and cultural sites of historic importance.
In April 2016, youth from Standing Rock and surrounding Native American communities organized a campaign to stop the pipeline, calling themselves “ReZpect Our Water”. Inspired by the youth, several adults, including Joye Braun of the Indigenous Environmental Network and tribal historian LaDonna Brave Bull Allard, established a water protectors’ camp as a center for direct action, demonstrating spiritual resistance to the pipeline in both a defense of Indigenous sovereignty and cultural preservation. The #NoDAPL hashtag began to trend on social media, and the camps at Standing Rock gradually grew to thousands of people.
Conflict between water protectors and law enforcement escalated through the summer and fall. In September 2016, construction workers bulldozed a section of privately owned land which the tribe had claimed as sacred ground. When protesters trespassed into the area, security workers used attack dogs which bit at least six of the demonstrators and one horse. In October 2016, militarized police cleared an encampment which was situated on the proposed path of the pipeline. In November 2016, police used water cannons on protesters in freezing weather, consequently drawing significant media attention.
The pipeline was completed by April 2017, and its first oil was delivered on May 14.
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Below is the raw, unedited transcript from our artificial intelligence translator.
Chloe Tilly
Hello. Welcome back to world. Have your say Chloe Tilly live with you for the next 30 minutes now we're going to be speaking about the US Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl. You may well remember he is regarded by some as a deserter who put other U. S. Soldiers lives at risks. Other people consider him a man who should be pardoned. What we do know is he walked away from his post in Afghanistan back in 2009.
He was then can captured by the Taliban and released two years ago when President Obama got involved, he exchanged five Guantanamo Bay detainees for his safe return. He's now asking to be pardoned and we're going to discuss that in the next 10 or 15 minutes. But first let's return to a story that we followed here on world have your say in recent weeks it's the routing of a Dakota oil pipeline.
A native american tribe says the proposed route will contaminate drinking water and run over sacred burial sites. Will the U. S. Army is now intervened and it says it won't authorize the root of the final section. Instead, alternatives need to be considered. It's not a final decision but it does mean that many people who are involved with the protests which we've covered here on the program are rather happy. We can speak to Dallas gold tooth who is a campaign organizer for the
indigenous environmental network on the standing rock reservation. And also joining us is chris white and Energy and environmental reporter at the Daily caller news foundation in Washington D. C. Welcome both of you to world have your say Dallas. First of all, I spoke to you what a couple of weeks ago and you were fighting hard for this presumably you're pleased with this intervention by the US army.
Speaker 2
Thank you very much for having me on the program. I think that we need to celebrate this as a momentary victory and that is a tremendous moment indeed. You know, we've advocated for the White House administration to step up to the plate to, you know, not grant the final easement for this pipeline across the Missouri River and to order an environmental impact statement.
And those two things have been accomplished. I think that, you know, this does not, this is not the final nail in the coffin, but this is a significant step in the right direction for
Chloe Tilly
us. You say celebrate this victory. But I'm just reading now that the news wires are reporting one of Donald trump's advisers spokesman, saying President elect Donald trump supports the construction of a pipeline in North Dakota and says with regard to that it's something we support and we'll review the full situation when we are in the White House and make the appropriate
determination at that time. That was what Jason Miller who is a trump spokesman said as a team news briefing. Um, that doesn't sound very positive from your perspective.
Speaker 2
No, we're cautiously optimistic about this win, but we know the car just still stacked against us. I mean we're native american people were well aware of the thin agreements that the federal government has made historically with our people. So we're waiting to see the writing on the wall. We're waiting to see what the trump administration will do.
Um, you know, this movement, this fight against Dakota access pipeline has gone beyond standing rock. It's beyond the country. It's a worldwide movement for the advocation of indigenous rights and for the protection of water away from fossil fuel development. And so, you know, we we we remain positive. I think that we will win this fight and we just were waiting to see on January one is a critical date coming up is when the a lot of the oil suppliers for this pipeline have an option
to renegotiate their contract or utterly leave the pipeline project itself. Given the change in prices for oil at this time. So we want to see if the oil suppliers are going to get scared because of all the conflict that's happened. We want to see if the ongoing divestment campaign will, will be successful.
And we're waiting to see what happens with the trump administration. But all that aside, I have a firm belief in our stance and our ability to mobilize continue to mobilize thousands of people to stand up in defense and support a standing rock in this fight.
Chloe Tilly
I'm looking on twitter at the moment. A lot of people using the hashtag Dakota and I can see fireworks in the sky, clearly, there have been celebrations, have you been taking part?
Speaker 2
Oh yeah, it's been, it's been a pretty beautiful scene. I mean we've had over 10,000 people in this encampment. This camp that shot going camp as it calls itself is currently, I believe like the eighth largest city in North Dakota at this moment. If it could be designated as a town, it's, it's, it's the celebrations are all across the board. I think that, you know, given the hardships we face, given the actual life threatening situations that we've been based against at the hands
of morton County Sheriff, the local police department. You know, I think there's, there's sincere grounds for people to celebrate this moment and then look towards tomorrow to continue to fight against this pipeline.
Chloe Tilly
I want to bring chris in, do stay with us Dallas and chris white from the daily caller news foundation. So I guess the brakes are on chris, but this is far from the end of the story, isn't it?
Speaker 3
Yeah, the of course the, the, after the Obama's the Obama administration's decision to essentially halt the, I'm getting some reverb, a little bit of reverberation. I'll just, I'll just plow right on through. So
Chloe Tilly
we'll have to tweak it and see if we can clear that up but do carry on if you wouldn't mind. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3
yeah. So the after the Obama administration's decision to essentially halt the pipeline. The decision now goes to President Donald trump after the election After January eight, I think, inauguration. So it's far from over. It is essentially a temporary halt, which is something that the Energy Transfer Partners, a
company that's, that's constructing the pipeline has been dealing with for the past a month and a half since the initial decision to halt the pipeline in early november.
Chloe Tilly
And it's worth saying that Donald trump has got financial interests in one of the firm's, hasn't he? Which is building this pipeline.
Speaker 3
He has, he has defended himself with the interests of the specific interest in the Energy Transfer Partners, which he had something in the neighborhood of 500,000 to a million dollars and uh, interesting the the company, although he does have interests in other companies that have that stand to gain from the construction of the pipeline he currently does.
So although again, he has tweeted out that he is willing to drop all of his, all of his business dealings uh, in order to take up his White House position. So that would essentially ...
Chloe Tilly
bring in Jason Spiess, who is a multimedia journalist in Fargo in North Dakota, Jason. What's your thought on this? Do you see this as a huge victory or merely just another barrier overcome for the protesters?
Jason Spiess
Well, it depends on really what side of the pipeline you're standing on and thank you very much for having me on your program by the way, um the public officials, the private sector is looking at this as a delay in what eventually will probably end up being a completed pipeline. Uh, the reason that they chose this specific route was because it runs directly next to a natural gas pipeline.
So this was the preferred method that to run the pipes. So from a private sector side, from a public official standpoint, they're looking at it as a delayed kick the can down the road to an eventual completion of a pipeline. If you're on the other side of it, you know, quite honestly, they look at the protesters a lot like underdogs right now because you have a president coming in who used to have shares in the company, he recently sold them, but he's very business friendly.
Um, you've got the public that is supporting these people because they don't necessarily think the protesters in the end will have their day, I guess their true day. And so it's kind of a mixed bag here in North Dakota to be perfectly honest. But the governor has come out and called it a mistake. The congressman Cramer has come out and said that the decision to delay this pipeline or not given easement for the pipeline is a big blow to America's infrastructure.
Of course, that's a big push right now is how to get infrastructure built because really at the end of the day, the oil is going to come out of the back and whether it's by pipe or by rail or by truck, it will come out. So pipe oil prices might go up a little bit, that might actually happen. And we've heard some energy companies talk about that because you're going to have to go to a more expensive route either by rail or by truck.
Chloe Tilly
You want to respond to these points?
Speaker 2
Well, I think that there's this false premise that, that we are continuously hearing that we have to depend on fossil fuel development in the very moment without any solid conversation about a just transition towards renewable sustainable energy. I mean, the United States right now, there are more jobs being created in solar energy than areas in coal and oil combined.
It is a booming industry and that that's a necessity for us, not only as to build a more sustainable economy that is, that is independent, that is not dependent on, on foreign sources of energy, but also it is a necessity for us as a society to really address climate change and to be accountable for the greenhouse gas emissions that, that we're currently putting in the air.
So I think that we really, you know, that this pipeline fight of course it's about that one pipeline. I, I disagree that, you know, it is going to be, it is inevitable. I believe that, you know, the pipeline is currently is basically not needed at this point, the current production levels of the bacon level don't even necessitate the amount of oil,
Chloe Tilly
But surely Dallas. This is so far gone, isn't it? This crosses four states. It's 1900 km long. This is the final section. They're not suddenly going to throw away their multi billion dollar investment and say, Oh, actually no, we don't need it. We'll walk away.
Speaker 2
Oh no, it we are definitely 100% the underdogs in this situation. And we're clearly aware of the cards stacked against us in this case. But given all those, the stats that you just listed, one added to it, is that this pipeline was supposed to be completed about four months ago. It was four months of active resistance of solid organizing, of thousands of people across the globe, taking to the streets and support standing rock in their legitimate arguments against this pipeline
that has delayed it thus far. And really the name of the game is death by delay. Like the more we delay, the more this becomes a financial risk for this pipeline. And that's really where we're going to hit them the most is in the pocketbook. So, you know, we applaud the decision by the decision of the White House.
That decision was made by the efforts of this common people around the kitchen table who said we're done with this dependence on fossil fuels. We're done with this disregard for indigenous rights in the routing of these pipeline projects,
Chloe Tilly
Jason is there another route that this pipeline could go that isn't going to disturb people, upset people that would keep everybody happy because presumably no one really wants it through their area, do they?
Jason Spiess
No, it's a case of nimby, not in my backyard but also really um they could go a new direction, but the cost of it would be so astronomical because so much of the pipeline is already done. I mean it's something like 95% of the pipeline is already complete. Um kind of the death by delay comment is really one of the more interesting ones because since the beginning this this protest has been very well organized, extremely well organized to where several months ago they were commenting
about the winter is not going to scare them away. And I see they've already raised a million dollars of their $1.2 million goal for the next round of funding. So the protesters if, if they're true and the game is death by delay, they are really doing a heck of a job, they're winning the battle and because they do believe a lot like a lot of others that necessarily they don't.
But a lot of people do believe that it's going to happen, 95% of its done trump is going to be in the White House and there's so many pipelines in the ground right now, why this one specific one. So when you really start taking the layers off of the onions, so to speak, there is a good argument to say it's going to go through now from the native american side, the water is life is really their best argument.
So if they can continue going with that, they might be able to delay a little longer. But if the end of the game really is going to be delay and financially cost these companies money, they're doing a great job. They really are, like I said, they've been well organized out of the gate, they've had organization control out of the gate
Chloe Tilly
chris I want to bring you in here. Could anything stop this happening? Could President Obama intervene and say absolutely not. You can't build the pipeline through this area. The US army of course has intervened already saying, you have to look at different routes
...
Speaker 3
Currently standing rock gets it to water supply about 20 miles downstream of where the pipe is supposed to, supposed to go across the river. Um the tribe has been able to secure a new water treatment plant that's 70 miles south of that, which would make it more difficult to argue that the, the pipeline would endanger the tribe's drinking water.
And that happened, I think uh that decision was made I think two weeks ago earlier this month. Um So it makes the situation a little more difficult for the tribe going forward. Um as far as as the pipeline um Being completed, like, like I heard earlier, the, it's about 95% complete, 8 90-95% complete with the exception of the pipeline being connected over the river. So it's The possibility of reroute is almost remote.
It would cost astronomical amount of money to do to, to pull up the pipe, all the pipeline that has been, that has been built, 1000, miles worth pipelines have been built. So it's like we've commented here, it's the overwhelming um, stays on the, uh, on the, on the people who are opposing the pipeline, they're really at the, their backs on the wall, at the wall.
Chloe Tilly
So Dallas, if your backs against the wall, what's the best outcome that you can realistically hope for?
Speaker 2
I'm, I'm, I am the most optimistic Chipmunk in the room right now. I believe that we can stop this pipeline. I think that, you know, a reroute is a feat that is, you know, is somewhat unrealistic, but it's something that, you know, administration is going to look into. I think that, you know, they have every right to look into that in the argument.
You know, the crux, one of the major foundations of the tribes arguments in this case is that Dakota access in the state of North Dakota did not follow the letters of the law and properly consult the tribe? This entire process. I mean, they basically developed their own plan, they developed the plans, the route, everything that went along with it and then went to the tribe and said, here, what do you think about this?
That's not consultation? The tribe two years ago in a recorded meeting said, we don't want this pipeline and no matter where you put it, if it's within our treaty territories within our territorial lands, we do not approve of this pipeline. So the only approved route would be have to be outside of that treaty land, which is north of Mandan, about 60 miles north.
So, you know, the odds are against us. I think also the odds are, you know, are are are stacking up against the Dakota access. They have the funds, you know, which which means that they have the might, but we as water protectors have the right and as numerous cases in the past have demonstrated that the right will always overcome the might.
Chloe Tilly
Dallas, thank you so much for joining us. Dallas gold tooth speaking to us also. We heard from chris white and Jason Spiess talking about that latest development in the controversial Dakota oil pipeline. You're listening to world have your say? We've got around 10 minutes of the program remaining and we're gonna turn our attention to a story that was trending out of the U. S. AA
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The Crude Life Podcast: Jason Spiess Interviewed by the BBC World Service