Dr. Neal Barnard joined Jason Spiess to discuss his recent finding with a plant-based diet study with GEICO workers, monitoring their eating habits. The results were so promising GEICO has added more locations to the study across the US in hopes of linking it to influencing health insurance rates.
He also talks about several of his books and how the plant-based industry is emerging at a healthy pace.
Neal Barnard, M.D., F.A.C.C., is an adjunct associate professor of medicine at the George Washington University School of Medicine and Health Sciences in Washington, D.C., president of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and founder of Barnard Medical Center.
Dr. Barnard is a fellow of the American College of Cardiology, the 2016 recipient of the American College of Lifestyle Medicine’s Trailblazer Award, and has led numerous research studies investigating the effects of diet on diabetes, body weight, and chronic pain, including a groundbreaking study of dietary interventions in type 2 diabetes, funded by the National Institutes of Health. Dr. Barnard has authored more than 70 scientific publications as well as 18 books, including the New York Times best-sellers Power Foods for the Brain, 21-Day Weight Loss Kickstart, and the USA Today best-seller Dr. Barnard’s Program for Reversing Diabetes.
As president of the Physicians Committee, Dr. Barnard leads programs advocating for preventive medicine, good nutrition, and higher ethical standards in research. He hosts four PBS television programs on nutrition and health and is frequently called on by news programs to discuss issues related to nutrition and research.
Originally from Fargo, N.D., Dr. Barnard received his medical degree at the George Washington University School of Medicine and completed his residency at the same institution. He practiced at St. Vincent’s Hospital in New York before returning to Washington to found the Physicians Committee.
Follow Dr. Barnard on Twitter @DrNealBarnard and Facebook @NealBarnardMD.
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Below is the raw, unedited transcript from our artificial intelligence translator.
Dr. Neal Barnard
Yeah, this is doctor Neil Barnard. I am the president of the physicians committee for responsible medicine. I'm also on the faculty of the George Washington University and if you care, I'm the fellow of the american college of Cardiology. So a bunch of different
Jason Spiess
Things. So you have some very good credentials. My favorite credential for you is you are one of the doctors and supersize me, is that correct? Yeah, exactly. Is that, are you still receiving anybody who sees you on the street for that or anything or is that, is that 15 minutes of fame long gone?
Dr. Neal Barnard
I'm kind of an idiot. I gotta tell you, I, I did not take that movie seriously when morgan spurlock came to my office. Um, it was him and one other guy and a tiny little camera and he wanted to tackle Mcdonald's and I thought Mcdonald's isn't the whole problem here. Uh, but we shot some footage and did, he turned that movie into something or what? It was really just amazing. He
Jason Spiess
really turned it into quite a brand.
Dr. Neal Barnard
He did. He, he did. And it, it just, I think it opened a lot of people's eyes that fast food isn't just fun stuff with no risks.
Jason Spiess
And you've actually, um, been quite a proponent against Mcdonald's for decades. Is that fair to say a decade
Dr. Neal Barnard
couldn't happen to a nicer organization
Jason Spiess
there that I just read where they're, they're in their final days of their brand right now. I just read that because their, their new Mcdonald's breakfast menu. Um, just the whole health craze that's going on and we're gonna get into that. But um didn't you do a super bowl ad against Mcdonald's or something controversial?
Dr. Neal Barnard
We did we did we did actually a few one that didn't get quite as much notice. It was a uh E. K. G. It was the tv turns on black screen. E. K. G. Comes up with this blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and it gradually morphs into the Mcdonald's arches. Mcdonald's arches and then it goes flat line and the guy dies you know and all the while that is happening here this guy ordering his food and then he collapses.
The one that got a lot more attention was um there's a scene in the hospital and here's the doctor is consoling the poor widow who is crying you know hopelessly and they're right in front of him as the dead body. And as the the camera pans around him you can see in his right hand is a half eaten burger. And then when the camera gets to his feet and you see these bare feet right in front of you, the Mcdonald's arches trace over his feet and it says Mcdonald's I was loving it.
Um And it was the director just did such a beautiful job with its had just millions of views and everyone said it would say that you know aren't you afraid of getting sued and whatever that that wasn't the point. The point was to say this is not healthy. Um and it was very effective.
Jason Spiess
Uh that was one of the toe tag.
Dr. Neal Barnard
That was, that was one of the,
Jason Spiess
I remember the viral part in the toe tag was the part that really kind of
Dr. Neal Barnard
caught on. And actually even way, way, way before that, there was a long before many people were born, there was a lawsuit in London called the McLibel suit. There were a bunch of activists, Greenpeace activists who were um, leafleting about Mcdonald's saying this is unhealthy and it's anti environmental and all this stuff. Mcdonald's sued them and everybody settled and said, okay, we can't afford to be uh we can't fight Mcdonald's except for two.
And there were two said, tell you we're gonna fight and the case went on longer than any litigation in England's history and they asked me to come out and just talk about the health aspect of it. So that was the McLibel suit. So anyway, the point being, there has been a long conflict, but with Mcdonalds and Mcdonald's is in a tailspin, there's no question about it, but they're not the only problem, there's a lot of problems out there, that's bad news, The good news is, there's more
than ever resources to get people on the right track. It's amazing books and movies and websites and cookbooks and, and role models in the form of actors and celebrities and former presidents and people like that. So there's a lot
Jason Spiess
of people, So get into the meat of the subject, No pun intended. Uh I think it was seven when when did reversing diabetes come out in your book? 2007. 2007. Okay, so for the audience out there, I interviewed Dr Bernard um is that pronounced
Dr. Neal Barnard
correctly? ...
Jason Spiess
Dr Barnard? Um I'm a method journalist. So what I did is I took the 21 day challenge of going vegan. And vegan is no animal food, right? No no butter, no milk, no cheese. What else is a common one that people might eat on a
Dr. Neal Barnard
Daily Chicken wings. All gone chicken wings, which surprises people, but you throw it all out and you see 21 days later how you feel.
Jason Spiess
And so I did that and I did not accomplish it 100%. I was about 80 to 85%. And I remember the comment to you back in 2007. What, what I took away from? It wasn't the fact that I lost three inches in my waist in 21 days. It wasn't the fact that my my hair and my my skin looked better. It wasn't the fact that I had more energy, it was the fact how accessible it was easy. It was for me to do it.
Now, I didn't do it 100% like I said, but the fact that I could do it 85% so easily. I was shocked. And and fast forward to today. It could easily, I can do it 100% now. It's uh, you know, there's, there's chickpea flour places, there's a falafel is acceptable uh, to talk to me about this accessibility of the vegan or at least the vegetarian diet. I
Dr. Neal Barnard
think it's the V word sounds like you're from the planet Vegas, but the truth is, you are from right here in the midwest. Um a couple of examples, you can go to the nicest italian restaurant anywhere anywhere and you can get a plate of spaghetti instead of having the meat sauce with the cream sauce. They'll be glad to make tomato sauce with wild mushrooms and artichoke hearts and chunky tomatoes.
Or you have the pizza, say leave off the cheese, give me all the extra toppings, electra, tomato sauce and whatever, perfectly fine. It's lighter taste, but you'll like it. Um you can go chinese. Obviously they got rice dishes, vegetable dishes, tofu dishes, all kinds of stuff. Or my personal favorite um, mexican. So even when I was a kid, the mexican village over here on Main Avenue opened in 1970 their number two burrito, it's got enough jalapenos to knock your socks off.
But if you leave the, the cheese off, it is vegan and nobody thinks of it that way. But it is so um vegan food is everywhere. It's very easy. It's just a question of thinking, wait a minute, let me focus on the healthy things. Just leave the rest of it off and within a few weeks like like as as you've experienced you just kind of forget that other stuff and what you notice is your waistline is slimmer, your energy is better.
Um You're the one who goes to the high school reunion and you're looking kind of like you look at that time you know whereas everyone else is is expanding before your very eyes so that's it. But but I have to say all those things are important. Oh but what we're really focusing on now is what I think really makes this something with much more urgency and that is when you look at Alzheimer's disease and these things that just tear a family apart.
I don't think we can prevent it all but I believe we can prevent a lot of it through diet changes. Um I couldn't have said that 10 years ago but I think we can say that now um that the same kind of diet changes that keep the heart healthy in the waist and slim will also reduce Alzheimer's risk. It's very exciting for us to have that possibility.
Jason Spiess
Um Talk to me about your Geico program you have going on. I mean talk about that's a great transition into dietary changes. Isn't that what you're attempting to do with the Geico cafeteria insurance program.
Dr. Neal Barnard
Geico is um as fate would have it, their national headquarters is about three blocks from my office in Washington D. C. and I got years ago 2006 2007 I was talking with their health director she said to me I've got 2500 employees in this building where you know where anytime anybody needs a bypass surgery, angioplasty, anybody on medicines for their blood pressure and diabetes and cholesterol and all that stuff that's money down the drain for us.
We need a vegan program here. So I said let's let's do it let's do it as a test. And so we picked the first test was two different Geico facilities. One in the Washington area. The other was in fredericksburg Virginia. And in in the Virginia facility they got no program but in the one in the D. C. Area they had to do two things really easy vegan food in the cafeteria and once a week support group cooking class whatever you call it.
And any employee who wanted to do it could come in and they did. And just what you experience is what they experienced easy but people who are overweight there, they lost weight easily. If they have diabetes their numbers got better. Um So that was very successful. So then we decided to expand and we went to 10 different cities at the Geico plant in Macon Georgia and buffalo new york and san Diego in Tucson and everywhere else.
And exactly the same thing happened and by now it's getting to be a no brainer that a it's easy be it's um it beats the heck off out of standing in line for it with a prescription.
Jason Spiess
So did they ever assign a monetary value to the savings that you brought through the
Dr. Neal Barnard
program? That study was not designed to do that? But we're in discussions now to see about doing exactly that. Um Because um you're not going to prevent some of the things that cost money, like childbirth and trauma and other things that soak up insurance costs. But where is the big insurance dollar going? It's insulin injections and medication. When a person comes into my office with diabetes, they don't bring a bottle of pills, they bring a whole sack there on one thing for
their cholesterol. 32 or three things for their diabetes. 234 for their blood pressure, lots of other things and the average cost is around five or $6000 a month. Um So if you can knock some of that out, you're saving serious money.
Jason Spiess
That's that's incredible to me. Um That there's you know, you could easily see the monetary value. I mean just by what you you said there but just off of the preventative nature, obviously if somebody is getting healthier, they're not going to the doctor more. They're not, you know what I mean? That that ripple effect is not happening. I mean we have dialysis um strip malls popping up all over the place. Have you seen these in Fargo
Dr. Neal Barnard
if you can prevent even one person from needing dialysis and I think you can go way beyond that. Um, you are saving tens of thousands of dollars I'm talking about per person. Um, it's massively expensive. Um, the one of the reasons why the kidneys, two reasons high blood pressure, diabetes. Those are the big kidney destroyers and both of them can be addressed to a large degree by diet.
Jason Spiess
Let me ask you this question. I had Dr David Kessler on my program, the former FDA. And this is after he stepped down. So he was a little bit more liberal with his, with his language as opposed to when he was the FDA commissioner head or whatever he wants. Um, and I point blank asked him, is sugar a drug?
And I'll ask you the same question is sugar a drug. He he said, he said it is classified as a food. However, now I might change my mind is what he said. So he left it open. Uh, what what do you think? I I personally think sugar is a drug
Dr. Neal Barnard
we'll sugar, it is a drug. Um, It's not necessarily the worst drug, but it is a drug in the sense that it affects the brain in a certain way that has short term effects that you can experience and it does get you habituated to it over the long term. You can see this on the first day of life if you take a baby. um you're gonna do a little heel stick to get a blood sample, you know, you got a drop of blood out to do blood tests.
The baby cries, if you take some sugar mixed in a little bit of water dribble in the baby's mouth, the baby cries less, it has a slight anesthetic effect. Um and babies, kids love sugar, they're not thinking about the brain effect, they're just like, oh, it tastes good and adults get into it um in the form of sodas, in the form of cookies and so forth. Um and so it does have a little bit of that kind of feel good effect.
Um where it becomes a real problem is when the cookie has the butter baked into it or the shortening. Then the sugar leads you in like the trojan horse and inside it is all this fat that is very dense with calories and that's why people are gaining weight, The sugar calories there an issue. But the real calorie rich things are the fats in the cheese fat, the meat fat, fryer grease and so forth.
Jason Spiess
Even the carbonated water to a certain degree. Two would be also part of that. Yeah,
Dr. Neal Barnard
I've often I'm with you, but I don't understand it. Tell the truth, why is it that you take a coca cola? It's got sugar in it. It's got people don't want just pure sugar, they want it to be kind of flavored with cola, vanilla cherry or something like that. Um Plus a little bit of caffeine, which is also a drug, not necessarily a terrible drug, but it is clearly a drug.
Situating ask any coffee drinker, you know, it's the way it is and a little bit of that bubble stuff. Somehow when you do that, it keeps it does keep people hooked. Not the only drug um cheese also remarkably has some of this effect to um the protein and cheese breaks apart to release very very mild opiates that they're called. So more fins. Um And we were unaware of them until 10 or 15 years ago.
Um but but there there and there's a reason why people want cheese or sugar and you know, you like a strawberry, you might like asparagus but never nobody ever binged on strawberry. Nobody ever just shoveled in the asparagus until he couldn't move. But we do that with sugar and we do it with cheese and we do it with meat. Chocolate. That's about it. Yeah, those are the addictive foods.
Jason Spiess
Uh Dr kessler would say his book was on sugar, fat and salt and the psychological effect how when you walk past 85th Street, that's why you want a Dunkin, donuts, coffee because you know your environment stimulants reminded you and then you go get it. And so he was talking about the addictive nature behind the three of them. So anyway uh um state of organic.
I've been interviewing organic farmers uh and I've been interviewing non organic farmers that are pretty vocal about their uh inability to be called organic farmers. Do you understand what I'm talking about here? Where the small organic farmers having a hard time being organic, are you
Dr. Neal Barnard
talking about the fact that they're doing pretty much the same, but they're just not certified, they're not
Jason Spiess
Certified, and then there's even some changes in the organic laws over the last 10, 10 years. Um you know, it depends on how Deep you want to go with the conversation with the organic farmer, but um just kind of a state of the organic farming and food, from from where you're at uh whether it's the changes in the law or the 5% of your growth has to go to the labeling whatever it might
Dr. Neal Barnard
be. Um From a medical standpoint, what counts is that you want clean food? You also want good quality food. 15 years ago there was some organic food but it was not really so good looking. Um That has changed, the quality is improving and the availability is improving, but there are some things that are for all intents and purposes organic but aren't labeled that way, I get a hydroponic lettuce where there was never an insect taking a chunk out of it because it was grown indoors.
Um But for various reasons, they may not be able to label it organic, but it's perfectly fine, it was never pesticide treated. Um So I think those things are gonna change over time. I think the availability is going to continue to go up. Um But I am a little bit surprised that the demand isn't more than it is. A lot of people really don't pay much attention to it. Um And I think they should uh There are certain foods apples, green leafy vegetables which are pretty um fragile in nature.
And the farmers tend to hit them with a lot of chemicals. There are others like a potato sitting on the ground. You know they don't use a lot of chemicals on those. So for the ones where they do I think it's good to buy organic and I think they should
Jason Spiess
be supported your books. Let's hear about your latest book and promote yourself a little bit.
Dr. Neal Barnard
My latest book. Yeah. Okay. There we go. My latest book is called Power Food for the Brain. Yes, it's brand new. Not brand new, but it's been a little while. Power Food for the Brain relates to Alzheimer's disease. And when my grandfather started to deteriorate telling the same stories over and again. Um Getting more and more forgetful. And then finally spent the last several years of his life sitting in the corner of a nursing home room not knowing anybody, including his own wife
who came to see him. You see The tragedy of Alzheimer's you lose everything In 1993. The Chicago health and aging study began and they showed that certain foods are strongly associated with Alzheimer's and it happens to be almost exactly the same pattern as heart disease. Bacon cheese. Uh These foods are high in saturated fat, bad fat that raises your cholesterol, but it also is strongly related to Alzheimer's trans fats.
Donuts in um, cupcakes in fried foods. Trans fats are linked to set to alzheimer's as well. And when I say linked to, I mean, the people who eat the most of these things have 3 to 5 times more Alzheimer's than the people avoid them. Um, exercise helps reduce the risk of alzheimer's quite substantially and can even help a person who's starting to lose their memory to regain it to a degree.
So anyway, these and many other factors got me very excited because we had thought that brain deterioration is just old age, maybe jeans. That's it. Well, that is not it. Uh, genes are not destiny. There is a whole lot that you can do. And, and um, that's what, that's the reason I wrote power food for the brain. Um, the other thing and something I'm gonna mention here when I speak in a few minutes.
I see many, many people who want to change their diets, but they're unsure how. So what I do is I break it into two steps and the first step is to take a week and just check out the possibilities. And by that, I mean, you're not take anything out of your diet, you're adding a few new things to it. So I think what can I have that has no animal products in it at all, But that I genuinely like.
So for breakfast, maybe some oatmeal, but if I if I flavored with blueberries and cinnamon and strawberries and tastes okay, um pancakes with syrup, fine, just leave the butter off and it's suddenly vegan try the vegan sausage, vegan bacon. If it tastes like cardboard, forget it. If you like it, keep it so you take a week and you just check out the possibilities that step one, then step two.
Once you found breakfast and lunches and dinners that you enjoy, then take 21 days, this will sound familiar. Take 21 days and just set the other stuff aside. And during that time, eat from the food, you've already identified that you like and what you discover Is two things first, you're physically healthier on day 21, slimmer, more energy if you've got diabetes, your blood sugar is coming right down.
Um The second thing is you discover that your tastes have changed and you didn't expect that, but it's true that you start to enjoy these foods in the same way as a person who switches from whole milk to skim milk first week or so it's too light, but as time goes on, they come to prefer that lighter taste and they never want to go back to that creamy, thick yucky whole milk in the first week on a vegan diet, it does seem light.
You're gonna think I have to acquire a taste for folk music now. Got to break out the tide. I I'm vegan second week that all melts away. Third week, you're an expert and then you never want to go back. So you get the health benefits, you get the the new healthy habits are starting. And then at that point, you can think about doing it more long term, but I never hit a patient over the head set for the rest of your life.
You're never gonna have another burger or whatever. Just short term. No. Step one, check out the possibilities. Step 23 week test drive after that, see what you want to do long term and people's lives are just changed. Got an email this morning. A woman saw my diabetes at the window that you were mentioning. She went on it, she was on several different medications.
She uh, discovered this book, lost almost £100. Not only did did she get off the diabetes medications? Her doctor said to her something that was that no one ever said to me when I was in medical school, we weren't, we were told not to say this, he said your diabetes is gone. And if you can imagine what that feels like to a patient you are, you've got this disease. You know, it's gonna have a recovery with your kidneys and your eyesight and your feet, all these problems.
And to have your doctors say, you just don't have it anymore. You don't need to medicate. You don't need to manage it. It's gone. It's like it's like a miracle. But now we're seeing it all the time. And so when I was a kid, my dad was a diabetes doctor here at the far what used to be the Fargo Clinic. Um and I never heard him say that diabetes went away. It always got worse. Well, we didn't have the tools we got now and now. The tools we use are really simple.
Jason Spiess
Well, I can tell you I am a walking testimonial and dr Barnard is the reason that I am the healthiest I've ever been. The last three eye exams. My eyesight has improved. I'm 41 years old now. I just turned 41 tomorrow. Okay. And the last three eye exams, my eyesight has improved. Okay. That's unusual for some, normally when you're 40, they say get the readers.
I mean, my eye doctors saying, Okay, here you are again, you're turning left. Everyone's turning right, Jason. You know I mean, and it's true. Um I don't keep any meat around the house, so that works out very easily. And if I ever eat meat, it's when I go to eat like sushi, that type of thing. Little teeny bits. Um and and so I'm not 100% I'm about 95%. But it's like fish and and you can't avoid some chicken stocks and some spaghetti sauces from time to time when you go out.
You know what I mean by that where you can ask, but there's it is difficult but um I'm a walking testimonial. Your book I gave to at least 10 different people. And the last one was a 75 year old woman Who for the first time in 10 years had a reduction in her diabetes medication after she and then I mean she she had tears in her eyes. So thank you sir. Thank you. Didn't mean to get all gooey out
Dr. Neal Barnard
of there, but I'm with you. It's a terrific
Jason Spiess
thing. It's a lifestyle change and it affects you mentally. So anyway. All right, thank you.
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The Crude Life Podcast: Dr. Neal Barnard Changing Health Plans, Company Cultures